tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post4003689326459416298..comments2024-02-04T03:57:19.271+01:00Comments on Zenobia: Empress of the East: More Uppity Women: the 4 Julia'sJudith Weingartenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06683483030413488309noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-3849997902887161152007-01-22T11:38:00.000+01:002007-01-22T11:38:00.000+01:00I'm afraid that Janet Johnson's lecture is not on ...I'm afraid that Janet Johnson's lecture is not on the web. You might follow up your interest in Cleopatra as ruler through Diotima (a site for the study of women and gender in the ancient world): www.stoa.org/diotima/<br /> <br />You'll find their recommended books and articles on Cleopatra at:<br />http://www.stoa.org/dio-bin/diobib?cleopatraJudith Weingartenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683483030413488309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-14737338719890089292007-01-21T19:06:00.000+01:002007-01-21T19:06:00.000+01:00I wonder if there is a text of the lecture on the ...I wonder if there is a text of the lecture on the lecture you mention on Cleopatra as C.E.O. anywhere on the web. I would dearly love to read it, as Cleopatra Viii is of interest to me, more for her abilities and skill as a ruler than anything else, and this lecture sounds fascinating!<br /><br />Very, very interesting blog, BTW!<br /><br />ShoshanaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-54449431405927148692007-01-17T14:51:00.000+01:002007-01-17T14:51:00.000+01:00Hmmm, that’s a good question. There’s no doubt th...Hmmm, that’s a good question. There’s no doubt that Cleopatra’s reputation in Roman circles was mud: smearing her name was a key aim of Augustan and subsequent propaganda. As always, it’s the victor who writes the script! And it still works. Yes, we remember her for ‘romance and drama’ but also for (oriental) craftiness and lasciviousness. I'm no expert on Egypt, but there's some evidence that Egyptians and Syrians did not accept this version of history. Otherwise, it makes no sense that Zenobia’s contemporary, Kallinikos of Petra, dedicated his history of Alexandria to “Cleopatra”, in fact, to Zenobia. The same is implied by her being called the “New Cleopatra”: was that to establish her as the legitimate successor to the well-remembered Ptolemies? <br /><br />I’ve asked Prof. Janet Johnson of the Oriental Institute in Chicago if she would give us her opinion on how Egyptians may have remembered Cleopatra VII. Last year, Janet gave one of the Wilkinson lectures, the wonderfully titled, "Cleopatra as CEO: Bureaucracy and Scandal in the Hostile Takeover of a First-Century (BCE) Multinational." It was a masterful dissection of Roman propaganda, contrasting it with the archeological record of Cleopatra’s queenship – an altogether different story. I hope that she’ll be able to comment.Judith Weingartenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683483030413488309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-73854798764156666832007-01-17T05:47:00.000+01:002007-01-17T05:47:00.000+01:00I do take your point: it's a rather long chain of ...I do take your point: it's a rather long chain of supposition. However, with regards to #4, and you're in a better position to know this, but WAS Cleopatra VII considered "The Great Cleopatra" at this period? I mean, when you really think about it, she failed. We remember her for the romance and drama of her story 2000+ years on, but what did those closer to her age think of her? Would Zenobia, who wanted to be Empress of the East, want to explicitly associate herself with a woman who ALMOST did the same thing, but was ultimately defeated by Rome? And wouldn't Cleopatra Thea, a much bigger figure in Syriac history, be more advantageous to claim descent from anyway?Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03301077496668834657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-13741635724463742802007-01-16T15:55:00.000+01:002007-01-16T15:55:00.000+01:00Thank you, Frank, for the link to Christopher Benn...Thank you, Frank, for the link to Christopher Bennett’s page: a fascinating investigation. The arguments are extremely complex (as always concerning the extended families and marriages of Ptolemies and Seleucids). It obviously needs more study, but I think it safe to say this much:<br /><br />1. The connections between Zenobia and Cleopatra VII and Mark Anthony and, through them, to the Emesene kings seem weak to me. For example, a putative, far from certain wife of Juba II (otherwise married to Cleopatra Selene), Julia Urania “known only through a funerary inscription of her freewoman” is linked by her name alone to Uranius Antonius of 3rd C Emesa.. <br /> <br />2. Then there is the Mauretanian Drusilla, about whom... <br /><br />“At first sight, since there is no suggestion that Alexander Helios or Ptolemy Philadelphus had any children, one would conclude that Drusilla, granddaughter of Cleopatra, must be the daughter of Cleopatra Selene.”<br /><br />Or, possibly, “Drusilla must be a great-granddaughter of Antony and Cleopatra, and almost certainly a daughter of Ptolemy rather than of his sister.”<br /><br />Then, “As to the identity of [Drusilla’s] royal husband, we know nothing.” Nonetheless it is “a reasonable guess” that he was C. Julius Sohaemus, who became king of Emesa in 54 AD. <br /><br />3. Rather more convincing are two ancestors of J. Aurelius Zenobius (who may have been Zenobia’s father, though this is not really proven) with the decidedly Emesene-looking names of Sampsigeramus and C. Julius Bassus. If Zenobius is indeed her father, this would be the relationship you are looking for.<br /><br />I wonder why no trace of this remains in literature, whereas Odenathus is remembered as having family in Emesa...?<br /><br />4. Finally, if Zenobia was a descendent of the Great Cleopatra, why would she have claimed descent – if she truly did – from the relatively unknown Cleopatra Thea? That she was called the ‘New Cleopatra’ is rhetoric (as is her claimed descent from Semiramis, etc). The whole episode of the Palmyran conquest of Egypt is extremely obscure and her propaganda is not really clear. I hope to come to grips with this, as best I can, when we get to that part of the story.Judith Weingartenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683483030413488309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-76706180542800103812007-01-16T05:22:00.000+01:002007-01-16T05:22:00.000+01:00Do you accept the theory that she was descended fr...Do you accept the theory that she was descended from Cleopatra VII and Mark Antony as well?<br /><br />This page (http://www.geocities.com/christopherjbennett/ptolemies/selene_ii.htm#Selene.9) has a very interesting discussion of the issue and seems to also indicate that Zenobia probably DID have Emesan ancestry.Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03301077496668834657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-82002086776295815792007-01-15T10:50:00.000+01:002007-01-15T10:50:00.000+01:00As far as I know, they were not related, although ...As far as I know, they were not related, although it's not improbable that the old royal houses of Emesa and Palmyra had intermarried. There is some evidence that Odenathus, her husband, the Prince of Palmyra (= ras tadmor) at least had cousins among the Emesene aristocracy. We'll come back to that much later in our story. Zenobia claimed descent from the Hellenistic king, Antioch the Illustrious, of Syria, and his wife Cleopatra Thea, daughter of Ptolemy VI, - thus combining in her person the lineage of the old rulers of Syria and of Egypt.Judith Weingartenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683483030413488309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-78326388567891459272007-01-15T01:52:00.000+01:002007-01-15T01:52:00.000+01:00Isn't it likely that the two women were related? ...Isn't it likely that the two women were related? If I'm remembering correctly, Zenobia was descended from some Emesan high priests, too.Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03301077496668834657noreply@blogger.com