tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post7685757490290058534..comments2024-02-04T03:57:19.271+01:00Comments on Zenobia: Empress of the East: The Lure of the EastJudith Weingartenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06683483030413488309noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-65255584258759031992009-12-04T08:55:43.934+01:002009-12-04T08:55:43.934+01:00GMS wrote: "For every orientalist there is an...GMS wrote: "For every orientalist there is an equal and opposite occidentalist."<br /><br />Agreed.Judith Weingartenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683483030413488309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-80850639689013734032009-12-03T22:54:50.681+01:002009-12-03T22:54:50.681+01:00Perhaps you should look at Hamilton's "Pa...Perhaps you should look at Hamilton's "Palmyra" again and try to remove the thoughts of the occidentalist, Said from your mind as you do so.<br /><br />Perhaps then you would see two Europeans clad in Romanesque robes, one with his finger outstretched like Adam receiving the spark of life, to himself receive the spark of enlightenment from a Greco-Roman past, and the only source of light in the painting.<br /><br />The Europeans in the picture were guided there by Arabs, reflecting the manner in which Greek philosophy was transferred to Europe via Islamic Spain and along with it Persian medicine and mathematics. <br /><br />In doing so, the Arab guides triggered the Renaissance and the Enlightenment and we finally contemplated the thoughts begun by the Mut'azilah seven hundred years earlier.<br /><br />Misunderstanding "the other' is not in the sole ownership of the west, or as the East called us for a thousand years, the Franks. For every orientalist there is an equal and opposite occidentalist.GMSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-26858834119769865912008-07-10T17:04:00.000+02:002008-07-10T17:04:00.000+02:00that's one the keys to Orientalism, not to be inte...<I>that's one the keys to Orientalism, not to be interested in the ignorant peasants who actually inhabit the place but in its glorious (Graeco-Roman = Western) past.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, good point - and that, I suppose, is what makes it an Orientalist painting: littered with colourful Orientals, whose function it is to point to the noble (European) past. Although it makes me wonder if then the whole discipline of archaeology is inextricably Orientalist in conception: why be interested in and identify with dead folks when living ones are right here?<BR/><BR/>As a side note, love the red elf boots. What do they tell us, in the richly symbol-laden language of neoclassical painting, I wonder?richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-4946150775982912542008-07-10T10:21:00.000+02:002008-07-10T10:21:00.000+02:00'Middle Kingdom' my foot! :-)This is a misleading...'Middle Kingdom' my foot! :-)<BR/><BR/>This is a misleading translation. How about 'Central Kingdom' or simply smack in the <B>Middle of the World</B>. The Chinese never thought of themselves as 'middle' in the sense of between or betwixt, but as the Centre, with lesser kinglets and breeds rotating around them, like so many satellites. <BR/><BR/>Richard, that's one the keys to Orientalism, not to be interested in the ignorant peasants who actually inhabit the place but in its glorious (Graeco-Roman = Western) past. On the other hand, if you're searching for your roots, what harm is done? On the third hand, what if you demolish the scruffy Arab huts (as the French did) so you can better enjoy the Temple of Bel?<BR/><BR/>It's never simple.<BR/><BR/>And, of course, how the Palmyrans may have viewed themselves is another question entirely. East of Rome? West of the Euphrates? We haven't a clue. Fergus Millar wrote a wonderful book on this very question, <I>The Roman Near East</I> and had to conclude that we don't know where the people of Syria or Mesopotamia (other than a tiny elite) would have placed themselves.Judith Weingartenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683483030413488309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-78541129005238927582008-07-10T00:47:00.000+02:002008-07-10T00:47:00.000+02:00Logos Bible Software has recently made Patrologia ...Logos Bible Software has recently made Patrologia Cursus Completus, Series Graeca, Part 1 (Vols. 1–18) available for pre-order. It sounds like something you might be interested in.<BR/><BR/>Thanks!<BR/><BR/>http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/4345o1mnikenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09990596023199445007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-45116505392403945872008-07-09T16:04:00.000+02:002008-07-09T16:04:00.000+02:00I was about to say China, too - and as far as I kn...I was about to say China, too - and as far as I know, the court at Chang-an or Beijing considered its Empire to stretch to every corner of the world, with slowly decreasing influence over ever-more barbaric outsiders. Of course, I can't put any dates on that, so it's quite likely to be an Orientalist construction.<BR/><BR/>My question, though, is <I>was Palmyra the Orient</I>? It seems like Classical Palmyra was very much part of the narrative of the "birth of the West," and it's classical Palmyra they're discovering, not 18th century Ottoman Syria. It makes me wonder where the Orient began, for British people thinking in a classical mode. Egypt? Nabataea? Not, I think, Ephesus, for all that it was in the Ottoman heartland.<BR/><BR/>Writing this, it occurs to me that you might have very deliberately skirted this question - avoided coming right out and saying that it's not Orientalism because it's not the Orient... perhaps because it's so difficult to draw the border?richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-53522678846244308962008-07-09T15:38:00.000+02:002008-07-09T15:38:00.000+02:00>>is anyone ever in the 'middle' in their own opin...>>is anyone ever in the 'middle' in their own opinion?<<<BR/><BR/>China, aka The Middle Kingdom/Country? I'm not sure where they located/locate the exotic 'other', though.RWMGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04271851970303022440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-9685884479042980962008-07-09T11:05:00.000+02:002008-07-09T11:05:00.000+02:00Good heavens, Bingley, that's no heifer! A rather...Good heavens, Bingley, that's no heifer! A rather good painting, though, and "blatantly erotic". Would the wife of the British Consul in Naples have dared?Judith Weingartenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683483030413488309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-50945917189860370822008-07-09T06:51:00.000+02:002008-07-09T06:51:00.000+02:00I recently came across this picture of Io by John ...I recently came across <A HREF="http://www.bergercollection.org/artwork_detail.php?i=9" REL="nofollow">this picture of Io</A> by John Hoppner, which is also alleged to be a portrait of Lady Hamilton.RWMGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04271851970303022440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-24066635799825330062008-07-04T16:54:00.000+02:002008-07-04T16:54:00.000+02:00Sophist, is anyone ever in the 'middle' in their o...Sophist, is anyone ever in the 'middle' in their own opinion?Judith Weingartenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683483030413488309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38472234.post-86895843223323613822008-07-01T17:50:00.000+02:002008-07-01T17:50:00.000+02:00Westerners looked towards the East for the mysteri...Westerners looked towards the East for the mysterious, and for escapes, and Easterners looked to the West for these same reasons. The question is: What did those who live in the middle regard as the direction of mystery, and where to did they escape when they wanted to get away from everything known?Sófistihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15446727540307733251noreply@blogger.com